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**heinkeljb** · 22-10-12, 09:20 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

This could be what you are looking for:-

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/docs/tech/design_symbols_plugs.pdf

From it you should be able to work out what the EKC and EKE means:

My understanding is EKC = 19mm, tapered seat, low angle ground electrode.
EKE= 19mm, tapered seat, V-Grooved Center Electrode (14mm only) 1.5mm Insulator Projection

So to me that means the difference is in the electrode being longer on the EKE, but it could also mean the the electrode is shorter at only 1.5mm long from the base to the tip.

Still throws some info into the mix.

John

**Thrumbleux** · 23-10-12, 09:08 AM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Originally posted by ethanol-smart View Post

They melt down side-elektrodes in intake side,

Couple of things here confusing me.
Firstly, why only the intake side plugs affected?
Second, the heat range aspect of a plug is its ability to draw heat from the centre electrode - not the side electrode. The side electrode has a clear heat path direct to the plug body and then the cylinder head. Why would side electrodes burn?

**ethanol-smart** · 24-10-12, 08:03 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

In fact, it might have been only when I ran on 50% gasoline, due to my missus demand for an easy started engine now when the cold is creeping down over us.
Before, on 100% E85, I mainly had breaking center isolator and melted center elektrode.
I will make a more serious ethanol-conversion with proper cold start enrichment later on, it is not optimal to have to use so much gasoline since it is also now easily detectable knocking too when the boost pressure is built up and on high load.

So, where are the comments from our tuners?
Dont you have any similar problems with overheated plugs on those chiped little engines???

I have tried to find something colder but it seems to end up in unusual racing plugs or similar.
The Champion RC87YCC - Champion seems to be availble but its a single side electrode plug and quite std, is it up to the task in this case?
How much is the combustion affected by the double side electrodes in the Smart engine?

What about champion-RC6YCC ? Too cold?

**ethanol-smart** · 25-10-12, 08:03 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Originally posted by heinkeljb View Post

This could be what you are looking for:-

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http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/docs/tech/design_symbols_plugs.pdf

From it you should be able to work out what the EKC and EKE means:

My understanding is EKC = 19mm, tapered seat, low angle ground electrode.
EKE= 19mm, tapered seat, V-Grooved Center Electrode (14mm only) 1.5mm Insulator Projection

So to me that means the difference is in the electrode being longer on the EKE, but it could also mean the the electrode is shorter at only 1.5mm long from the base to the tip.

Still throws some info into the mix.

John

Still confused..to me they look the same:

Sparkplugs Ltd – The UK’s Spark Plug & Ignition Specialists

http://www.sparkplugs.co.uk/pages/database/plug-detail-ccp.asp?partno=BKR6EKE

Discover high-quality spark plugs and ignition parts at SparkPlugs.co.uk. Shop leading brands, find the right fit for your vehicle, and enjoy fast UK delivery with expert support

vs

Sparkplugs Ltd – The UK’s Spark Plug & Ignition Specialists

http://www.sparkplugs.co.uk/pages/database/plug-detail-ccp.asp?partno=BKR7EKC

Discover high-quality spark plugs and ignition parts at SparkPlugs.co.uk. Shop leading brands, find the right fit for your vehicle, and enjoy fast UK delivery with expert support

the BKR7EKC is even some pence cheaper..

Ill order them now, but not from sparkplugs.co.uk, they had enough advertisement here... ;-)

I also understood now that Champion have a lot of alternatives with two electrodes, this one for example:
Champion - RC8DMC

Will try it if the NKG isnt working well.

Here in Sweden all these special vaiants seems to have been hidden, I think its a shame!
One guy in one of the biggest car parts indies even tried for 10 minutes via internet to find me some colder alternative by using the homepage of NGK, as they could order all NGK plugs at least, but to no avail.
Not until I googled and found this place, http://www.gsparkplug.com , things started to look bright!
It takes an enthusiast to make things happen!

**heinkeljb** · 25-10-12, 08:31 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Well, that looks like a good site. Have you sent them an email to ask their advise? I am sure they could give you several choices without even having to look them up!

John

**ethanol-smart** · 26-10-12, 02:40 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Originally posted by heinkeljb View Post

Well, that looks like a good site. Have you sent them an email to ask their advise? I am sure they could give you several choices without even having to look them up!

John

Yep. I didnt ask but I agree, Tom Green probably could help too.
I finally found the NGk catalog, in the net..: http://www.ngk.de/fileadmin/template...12_english.pdf
And inside, I got a nice picture of whats can be used from their assortment.
It turns out that the BKR7EKC is a special variant of the BKR6EKE, but colder and made specifically for Fiat.
In that catalog it is also easy to find other fitting plugs including racing and specials, and with a great supplier with fair prices, all that can be tested.
Future looks bright, the plugs are on the way.

I also registered as a Pro..: https://pro.ngk.de/Home.home-de.0.html?&no_cache=1&L=1
Who knows what interesting stuff can be inside?

**Kapt. Q** · 09-02-13, 08:59 AM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Hi Ethanol, any updates on this project? The data you are gathering may well be of use to me soon.
I notice you mention damaged plug insulators, this can be a sign of detonation (Knocking).

Cheers!

**bob-in-dav** · 09-02-13, 11:56 AM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Originally posted by Kapt. Q View Post

Hi Ethanol, any updates on this project? The data you are gathering may well be of use to me soon.
I notice you mention damaged plug insulators, this can be a sign of detonation (Knocking).

Cheers!

Hi Ethanol - I've been following your thread with interest and I've wondered more than once about your fuel/air mixture.

I believe, but stand to be corrected, that ethanol and methanol are similar substances which leads me to what I know from working with a friend who used to race grasstrack motorcycles running methanol.

He explained to me, in a way that only a science teacher could, that methanol requires approx 1/3 of the oxygen to burn that petrol does - so the theory is that you can feed 3 times the amount of ethanol into the cylinder and get a bigger bang for the same amount of oxygen which is where you get the extra power from.

His bikes ran on carbs and he used to have to triple the size of the jets to deliver the right fuel air mix.

I would assume form this that with fuel injection, you would need to remap to get this increased fuel delivery.

Hope I'm not trying to teach Granny to suck eggs here but just thought that it may be one of the factors ie lean mixture which is melting your plug electrodes.

Sincerely - Bob

**Kapt. Q** · 09-02-13, 09:20 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Did somebody say 'Methanol'????

I like mine with a dash of water!

Cheers!

Ps. sorry about the hijack, but you see why I'm very interested in your project.

**ethanol-smart** · 09-03-13, 03:17 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Originally posted by Kapt. Q View Post

Hi Ethanol, any updates on this project? The data you are gathering may well be of use to me soon.
I notice you mention damaged plug insulators, this can be a sign of detonation (Knocking).

Cheers!

Hi everybody interested!
Though i have to come in and show that I (and my Smart) are alive..

Sorry for my unactivity!
The Smart is on the yeard, not used all winter :-(
Reason is some electrical improvements as the ligth-stalk went out etc..
I have been busy with other technical issues with my house, heatpump installation and repairs, so the Smart have to wait a bit for its time!
It will come though, in the spring!

About detonation, Yes, I think it might, as I realized too late that in an attempt to get problem free coldstarts, actually was so stupid that I mixed in some 25% UGLY GASOLINe in the fuel.
Its a nono, I think regarded that I rasied the CR that much.
There is knocking control of the engine, but it cant handle everything, and I experienced some serious knocking the same week that I removed and found melted plugs.
So, dont try that at home.. :-)

**ethanol-smart** · 09-03-13, 03:23 PM

Re: What colder spark plugs?

Bob-in-dav,

Methanol is another alcohol, it worjs the same, but yes, it needs less air.
In the case of ethanol, the ECU have no problem to increase the fuel amount needed, its taken care of by the lambda control, but in the case of Methanol, I think that the injectors might be a bit too small, and possibly also that the ECU dont accept to inject all that much fuel extra.
Most cars, except pressure controlled like the Smart it seems, have a program limit that dont allow the ECU to add more than about 20% extra fuel, this is due to iagnostic reasons, but here we have no problem at least.

The main reason why some people run on M is that its cooling effect is outstanding, and that it can burn ultra fat together with Nitrometan o gasolin in engines that otherwise would know or overheat due to extreme power output.
E. is also cooling well, but not as well as M.

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