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Oil Extraction Pump & Flushing Oil ?

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  • Oil Extraction Pump & Flushing Oil ?

    Hi,

    Attempted to drain the old oil last night, records that came with the car indicate it was last changed over 2 years ago (4500 miles) - Black, with a strong petrol nose.

    Had a sump pump for marine diesel applications, managed to draw oil up through dipstick tube, but pump struggled, due to small bore nylon tube (6mm Pneumatic Tube). Sump Pump is designed to take 1/2" hose ....

    I disconnected after 20mins and left to syphon, literally a drop every 3~4 seconds. Checked this morning and still syphoning at the same rate - could be a day or two before it's finished !!

    Is there an Electric pump out there anybody recommends, or is the PELA style vacumn pump the best way to go ?


    Obviously there's going to be a fair drop left in the sump, so was think of using a flushing oil before renewing filter, followed by a Fully Synthetic fill.

    Any comments on this, or is it to be avoided (fickle engine + turbo considerations ??)

    Thanks
    Last edited by sparkyman; 13-08-15, 09:56 AM. Reason: Typo

  • #2
    Pela 6000 is tried and tested , you could fit a plugged sump - example: http://www.smarttune.co.uk/product.p...ortwo-up-to-07

    I've got a perfectly good used 6000 that I'll be getting rid of because I'm buying a new C453 smart , PM me if you're interested

    the more you change it the more diluted the left-in **** will be

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by sparkyman View Post
      Hi,

      Had a sump pump for marine diesel applications, managed to draw oil up through dipstick tube, but pump struggled, due to small bore nylon tube (6mm Pneumatic Tube).

      Thanks
      I had the same problem lifting 15W-40. When it was cold.... Warm, no problems with the Pela.
      If 11.45 is offering you his Pela at a decent price (why wouldn't he?!!) then grab it.

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      • #4
        Always better sucking warm oil than cold. Get flushing agent from Toolstation about £2.60 per bottle. Suck out some oil if necessary to make room for the flushing agent. Then run engine as directed and suck out once cool enough. Of course a lot better having a sump with proper drain plug.

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        • #5
          Toolstation engine flush by Silver Hook, London: www.toolstation.com/m/part.html?p=72043

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi - had looked at these flushing additives previously, but then found 5L of flushing Oil on eBay (Westways)

            Sypohing has finished now - will be checking tonight to how much I collected - what is the Roadster Oil capacity ?

            Cold/Hot oil - I've never understood this, as I always thought the oil was thinner/less viscous when cold - as the oil heats up, it gets thicker/more viscous eg 10W40 ??

            I understand how a Hot straight Oil (EG: SAE30) would be thinner when hot, but multigrades have been around for decades now, the lower viscosity rating when cold (10W) means the oil is thinner when cold, enabling better circulation around a cold engine ... as the oil temperature rises, it's viscosity increases towards the equivalent of an SAE40 grade

            My grandad used to put SAE40 in his car in the summer, and SAE20 in the winter .... I remember my dad saying the SAE20 would circulate better on start-up in an engine, with the car left outside during the winter.

            Is the practice of warming up the engine, prior to draining oil, a legacy of the old days when only straight grades were available ???

            Comment


            • #7
              The problem is not helped by the small syphoning tube and that potentially it sits in a bit of sludge whilst sucking, and that it's sitting perpendicularish to the sump bottom.

              Changing regularly will help avoid build up of sludge so will hopefully get better.

              It always helps to warm the oil up when it's 'dirty'

              Have messaged you re the pump, can send pics if required if you email me on the email I've given you
              Last edited by 10:45PM; 14-08-15, 12:39 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by sparkyman View Post

                Sypohing has finished now - will be checking tonight to how much I collected - what is the Roadster Oil capacity ?
                3.0 litres

                Originally posted by sparkyman View Post
                Cold/Hot oil - I've never understood this, as I always thought the oil was thinner/less viscous when cold - as the oil heats up, it gets thicker/more viscous eg 10W40 ??

                I understand how a Hot straight Oil (EG: SAE30) would be thinner when hot, but multigrades have been around for decades now, the lower viscosity rating when cold (10W) means the oil is thinner when cold, enabling better circulation around a cold engine ... as the oil temperature rises, it's viscosity increases towards the equivalent of an SAE40 grade
                It isn't easy to explain but I'll try.
                Firstly with a 10W/40 there is no oil thicker than a 10weight within it. How could a 40weight be thinned to a 10weight merely by chilling it? It can't - so it isn't there. Instead there is a 10weight fortified with VIs (viscosity improvers). VIs are long chain polymer molecules which when cold are bunched up tight causing little restriction to flow (low viscosity) and when heated expand and string out making the fluid less inclined to flow (increased viscosity as all viscosity measurement is based on flow rate in unit time through an orifice). To visualise VIs at work think of your fingers clasped into a fist (cold) then opening out to a flat palm, fingers stretched (hot). That is more or less how it works - the oil is artificially thickened with heat but it never matches (not even close) the cold viscosity. Hence we drain when hot as it flows much better.
                VIs then aren't oil and worse, in service, they get chopped up (no longer long strands) and gear drives and cam chains are the worst for this and when it happens the oil can no longer thicken itself at higher temps and is considered to have gone 'out of grade'. No problem you think, just load the oil up with VIs. Er, not quite. Synthetics are very poor at absorbing additives (which is what a VI is) and along with all the other additive packages an engine oil needs the synthetic's lack of solubility means the additive packages have to be rationed. The real reason semi-synthetics exist is to provide some solubility of a mineral oil to allow more robust fortification with additive packages (while retaining the synthetic tag for marketing purposes).

                Comment


                • #9
                  You loose suction when remaining oil level is about 5 mm. This I have confirmed by sucking oil out of buckets. Had also had the opportunity to examine a sump after unbolting from engine. Here it is:

                  There was lots of sludge in bottom of this sump. The oil left behind filled a soup tin two thirds full.
                  Last edited by tolsen; 14-08-15, 12:49 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tolsen View Post
                    You loose suction when remaining oil level is about 5 mm. This I have confirmed by sucking oil out of buckets. Had also had the opportunity to examine a sump after unbolting from engine. Here it is:
                    There was lots of sludge in bottom of this sump. The oil left behind filled a soup tin two thirds full.
                    Really? To remove my sump I had to cut into it with an angle grinder and rip it off. No oil was in the sump or I'd have been covered in it. Mind you, my sump wasn't coated with oil retaining sludge..

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ...Thanks for the insight - I'm familiar with the VI polymer strings unfurling - I vaquely remeber the old Castrol GTX adverts from the 80's !

                      Still don't quite get it though, when cold the oil has an equivalent grade of 10, when Hot it's 40 - my logic says the oil is less viscous when it's cold, so should flow easier ??

                      Anyway...

                      The sump photos are what I imagined will be left behind in my sump - hence the "flushing Oil ?" question. 2/3rd soup tin - is that about 300ml ??

                      Feel the engine could do with an internal flush with a specific product, but was wondering if the engine is fickle enough not to consider it ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        10:45 - No messages in my inbox ???

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by sparkyman View Post
                          ..

                          Still don't quite get it though, when cold the oil has an equivalent grade of 10, when Hot it's 40 - my logic says the oil is less viscous when it's cold, so should flow easier ??

                          ?
                          IIRC, the first (W, for Winter) and second figures are measured at different temperatures.
                          Try it for yourself. Put some cooking oil in a pan and heat it. Watch it thin as it heats - it's what oils do!

                          Comment


                          • sparkyman
                            sparkyman commented
                            Editing a comment
                            ..I agree with the cooking oil analogy, but multigrade engine oil is designed to get thicker as it gets hotter - that's why my logic can't grasp the warming of engine to make the oil flow easier ?

                        • #14
                          I HATE the software running this site , it's gotta be the worse most UNintuitive, UNuserfriendly user interface EVER !

                          Why can't it just like the rest of the forums ??

                          I've pm'ed you now

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Found this - very interesting reading (for those interested) which is now assisting my fuzzy logic and is making sense of things ...





                            Assuming a 10W40 Oil, and to simplify, lets assume ambient (cold start) is 40 Deg.C and normal engine temp is 100 Deg.C

                            At cold start, the oil has the viscosity of an SAE10 grade - SAE10 at this temp is appx. 27 Centistokes

                            At normal engine temp, the same oil has the viscosity of an SAE40 grade - SAE40 at this temp is appx. 15 Centistokes (so it is less viscous and will flow easier)


                            My logic only saw the "10" or "40" figure and assumed these were viscosity values at cold and hot ..... which they ain't. (I now acknowledge Thrumbleux's post #13, where he stated the mono-grades are measure at different temperatures...)


                            The relationship of oil viscosity to temperature is non-linear. An oil would thin out rapidly as it's temperature starts to rise from cold, but this rate of change reduces as the temperature increases.

                            What a multi-grade oil attempts to do is linearise the Vis/Temp relationship, so the oil's viscosity remains largely constant over the "cold start - to - normal running" temperature range.

                            So, the multi-grade oil does get thinner as it warms up and would therefore drain easier....
                            Last edited by sparkyman; 14-08-15, 03:40 PM. Reason: link corrected

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