Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

[tolsen]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Power production?

Give is some figures then. What power gain did you get by changing your TIK pipes and air filters?

Could you kindly quantify exact power gain for each inlet system modification.

[Thrumbleux]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Power production?

Yes, power production. As we all know an engine is an air pump. It's ability to pass as much air as possible in unit time in order to burn the most fuel is heavily dependent on an adequately sized induction system. An induction system that works well on an engine that for other reasons is limited to 45hp may not be best sized for an engine to produce 61hp, 80hp, or more. Thus when it come to pursuing power outputs greater than 45hp the induction system may well lack the ability to flow the required quantity of air.

Give is some figures then. What power gain did you get by changing your TIK pipes and air filters?

Could you kindly quantify exact power gain for each inlet system modification.

I have no definitive answers to the above question as quite simply I took no measurements before or after. What I can say though is that following fitment of the Brabus TIK and smoothing the flashes from it and the duct that enters the air box, throttle response was much improved particularly during upshifts. The logical conclusion is that airflow through the system was more easily accelerated to the required velocity and that points to the effect of reduced friction and turbulence in the ducts. Smaller cross-sectional and rougher finished ducts will concentrate a higher flow velocity nearer the centre of the duct which will require a greater energy to move said air compared to a wider smoother duct which can flow more uniformly over its entire cross-sectional area.
We are at higher rpms in the realm of 'choking' - a very real phenomenon in fluid flow. The work of Reynold informs us of the parameters of importance.

I'm not disputing your findings TK, merely removing the conflation that has occurred on this thread between pumping losses (which on a 4-stroke SI are at their worst the further away from the regime of maximum torque) and power production potential which is all about maximising air flow through the system. That is all.

[tolsen]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Take a worst case scenario:
0.7 petrol engine. VE = 300%. 6000 rpm. Assume maximum flow restriction in inlet duct before turbo 5kPa (about 500 mm H2O) which is typically max limit for industrial engines.
Free air flow becomes 105 litres per second. Inlet duct power loss is air flow times vacuum hence 525 Watt. You may fit one hundred ultra smooth silicon TIK pipes and and equal amount of expensive free flowing air filters. Regardless of what you do, you can only improve power by a small fraction of these 525 Watt so not much scope for any improvement.

[Thrumbleux]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

The reason to improve the flow capability is not to retrieve 0.5kW of pumping losses but to move from the 'choking' limit. Once flow is choked nothing can be done to increase the volumetric flowrate, not even a dramatic increase in upstream pressure or equally dramatic reduction in pressure downstream can effect any difference whatsoever.
Choked is choked and the restriction on airflow is every bit as real when the choking is caused by inadequate duct size as it is when caused by a partially closed throttle plate. Both limit power production by setting a limit on air flow in unit time The only gain in flow that can be made is not in volumetric but in mass terms and occurs only because of the increased density of upstream charge if and only if said charge pressure is increased - a costly exercise in expended energy and is only effective because of the increased density. Without an increase in density courtesy of increased pressurisation no further flow is possible - which is the operating regime upstream of the compressor.
Pumping losses are inevitable in any IC engine and the inevitable drop in volumetric efficiency as the induction system reaches its flow limit is what sets the rpm at which maximum torque will be produced. Beyond that the continued drop in VE allied with rising frictional losses is what limits power to the engines maximum. If the induction system can flow more air then the rpm of maximum torque can be raised and providing all other systems are supportive of higher rpm, a greater power output can be realised.

[tolsen]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

These engines are not being strangled with original inlet duct and air filter. Free flowing air filter and unmatched TIK pipe increase flow resistance.

Suggest anyone wishing to improve efficiency of their inlet air system measure at each step to confirm whether their efforts are worth while.

[Kapt. Q]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

These engines are not being strangled with original inlet duct and air filter. Free flowing air filter and unmatched TIK pipe increase flow resistance.

Suggest anyone wishing to improve efficiency of their inlet air system measure at each step to confirm whether their efforts are worth while.

Lol, we do with dynometer! when you get 110+hp out of a 45kw engine you can lecture us on how to tune these engines and what will work and what will not, you have never even owned a petrol Smart, lol.

[ossy]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Lol, we do with dynometer! when you get 110+hp out of a 45kw engine you can lecture us on how to tune these engines and what will work and what will not, you have never even owned a petrol Smart, lol.

That's a good idea.
I would also like to come.
I have a fortwo (petrol) with a few modifications to the air intake system.

[krassegrand]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Torstein, You have my support!

Jörgen

[tolsen]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Torstein, You have my support!

Jörgen

Thanks for that Jörgen. I'll soon continue my crusade against the imbecile. Working on some nice sketches at the moment that hopefully will illustrate my point regarding air flow upstream of turbo compressor.

By the way, I recently came across a warning issued by Detroit Diesel regarding use of foam or fabric air filters:

Foam and Fabric Type Air Cleaners.

Foam and Fabric type air cleaner elements, available in the aftermarket, may produce gummy or varnish-like deposits which may affect engine operation.

NOTICE:
Detroit Diesel is aware of attempts to use air cleaner elements
made of foam or fabric batting material soaked with a sticky
substance to improve dirt-holding capability. This substance may
transfer from the filter media and coat the inside surfaces of air
ducts and engine air inlet systems, and turbochargers. The result
may be reduced engine performance and a change in engine
operating conditions.
Detroit Diesel does not recommend the use of such air cleaners.

[ossy]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

And Detroit Petrol told me, Go for it

[Jimmyrinse]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

who cares, lets just say its down to personal preference.....

[Thrumbleux]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

who cares, lets just say its down to personal preference.....

No it isn't. Facts still count - not just 'how you feel about it'. It's an engine modification - not a lipstick.

[Jimmyrinse]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

Perhaps, but an air filter or pipe (provided there not faulty or substandard) are not going to damage an engine or associated parts.....these air filters and silicone pipes etc have been around for years with no problems.

As an upgrade its down to preference, i cant see these type of upgrade on there own to make much of a difference.
I personally have purchased a brabus tik for my standard roadster, mainly because mine was damaged. I am not in the slightest bit worried about my engine/turbo or any other component blowing up or breaking due to this......as I'm sure everyone else who has replaced there stock air pipe or filter will not be worried.

[tinwelp]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

I'll soon continue my crusade against the imbecile.

So I'm away for a while, pop back to look at a few threads for entertainment and what do I find? Well, comments like this!

Reading through all that's been said up to this post I see an assortment of very logical, technical arguments based on accepted theory, hard-won historical understanding and empirical data. I see a few endorsements for larger bore TIK hoses when chasing improved power. I see a few early mentions of the Brabus TIK. I see some inconsistent, but well-intended statement of 'facts', apparently from empirical derivation, but without any sensible technical explanation as support. I can see people lining-up to take sides... and I can see the first shot has just been fired over the bows. Meanwhile, the original poster still probably hasn't found the answer he was looking for. Nice.

So, let me hold my hand up now and admit that I was baiting you Tolsen when I asked my questions of your analysis. I know the answers because of, well, what I do, and you have a way to go yet to convince me you are correct. However, taking sides is not my objective, and neither is playing referee. All I would like to do is point out that the original question is in real danger of being lost in the pis*ing contest.

Why don't we answer the question first, then we can pis* to our hearts' content (or at least until a moderator calls time).

Dear Original Poster, either fit the 74kW Brabus TIK (if you haven't already), or a recognised brand aftermarket product, for which I personally recommend FORGE (because they sell good quality stuff, at least some of it is made in the UK, and because they're just very good chaps).

There now. How about we all do the same, then we can throw the **** around a bit, eh? Just remember people, it is very hard to push the worms back into the can...

Cheers... Paul

[tolsen]

Re: Tik Pipe kit Roadster 82cv

These so called upgraded TIK pipes introduce a sudden change in flow diameter within less than 30 mm of compressor wheel. Why some have difficulty grasping why this is not advisable is beyond me.